Professor Hans Jansen, one of the most prominent and respected scholars of Islam in the Western world, was called by Geert Wilders as an expert witness in Mr. Wilders’ recently-postponed trial for “hate speech” in Amsterdam.
Just as with the testimony given by Simon Admiraal and Wafa Sultan, Hans Jansen’s words are a devastating blow to those who accuse Mr. Wilders of “insulting” Islam. Every statement by the defendant is painstakingly demonstrated to be an accurate description of Islamic scripture, law, history, and theology.
Anyone in the future who is unfortunate enough to have to defend himself against the charge of “defaming Islam” will owe a great debt to Hans Jansen and Geert Wilders. This material has been read into the official record of a court of law in the Netherlands, and thus the European Union. This is precedent.
Our Flemish correspondent VH, who undertook the massive task of transcribing and translating Dr. Jansen’s testimony, provides this introduction:
The Arabist Hans Jansen was one of the expert witnesses called by the defense at the Geert Wilders Trial. He gave explanations of Mr. Wilders’ statements about Islam and the Quran, such as “A moderate Islam does not exist.” According to Jansen, that is correct: “There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam.”
On comparing the Quran with Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, Professor Jansen declared that there are more anti-Semitic passages in the Quran than in Mein Kampf. He also said that the Quran commands violence in the imperative. Professor Jansen agreed the Quran incites to hatred and murder. “As long as it only concerns unbelievers,” Jansen added.
In this four-part video, Judge Hanneke Lommen-Van Alphen reads out the report in the Amsterdam Court on October 6, 2010.
The quality of the audio in the first two parts is lower than one would like, but everything is subtitled. I’ve placed all the embedded videos below the jump, to avoid the “Blogger bug”, and they are followed by a complete transcript of all four parts. Many thanks to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:
Part 2:
Part 3:
Part 4:
Transcript:
| Part 1 | ||
| 00:00 | The expert witness has declared as follows: | |
| 00:07 | “My name is Johanes Julliaan Gijsbert Jansen, born November 17, 1942, living in Amsterdam, retired”. | |
| 00:16 | He has submitted a CV which is attached to the hearing and he says in a footnote to it: | |
| 00:24 | “I was a professor in Utrecht from 2003-2008. With the editing of the Kramers’ Quran | |
| 00:32 | translation, I mean annotating, removing errors, and so on”. | |
| 00:37 | This is another footnote of the CV. It seems clearer to me if I pick that up first, | |
| 00:42 | and also read that out. [Moszkowicz: “Please”] | |
| 00:47 | “Professor doctor Hans Jansen is an Arabist; he studied Arabic and Semitic languages | |
| 00:53 | in Amsterdam, Leiden and Cairo. The common thread throughout his career | |
| 00:59 | is the study of religion in general and Islam in particular. | |
| 01:05 | He is one of the few Islam-watchers in the Netherlands who dares to look without rose-tinted glasses | |
| 01:12 | at recent developments within Islam. At the University of Utrecht, | |
| 01:17 | he was a professor of contemporary Islamic thought. | |
| 01:22 | He also worked at the Universities of Leiden and Groningen. | |
| 01:27 | From 1991 to 1997, he was a member of the National Advisory Council for Development Cooperation, | |
| 01:34 | and participated in the controversy over the meaning and meaninglessness of international aid. | |
| 01:42 | In addition to his academic career, he engaged in numerous ancillary activities in the Middle East, | |
| 01:47 | including for the Red Cross in Iraq in 1990. He has visited almost all countries | |
| 01:52 | in the Middle East for longer or shorter periods, and resided for almost four years in Cairo, | |
| 01:58 | where he led the Dutch Institute from 1979 to 1982. | |
| 02:06 | He wrote among other things a well-noted biography of Muhammad, which was translated into German, | |
| 02:12 | and a standard work on the ideology and theology behind the 1981 assassination | |
| 02:18 | of Egyptian President Sadat. His books are not only translated into German, | |
| 02:23 | but also in Yugoslav, Turkish, and Indonesian. | |
| 02:28 | He has published articles in including [newspapers/magazines] De Volkskrant, Trouw, | |
| 02:32 | HP/De Tijd and the now defunct weekly Opinio. | |
| 02:37 | His book ‘Islam for pigs, monkeys, donkeys and other beasts’ became a modest bestseller | |
| 02:44 | in the Netherlands in 2008. The peculiar title of this book is derived from the Koran, | |
| 02:51 | which for Muslims is considered the literal word of God, in which non-Muslims are defined with these animal names. | |
| 03:00 | In 1992 he edited an edition of the authoritative Quran translation of Prof. Kramers.” | |
| 03:08 | Jansen is also a popular commentator on radio and TV programs | |
| 03:13 | such as Nova, Pouw and Witteman, and RTL News. | |
| 03:18 | And on his website you can find the list of publications and an abbreviated CV. | |
| 03:26 | With regard to the Quran translation, Mr. Jansen said in the hearing: | |
| 03:35 | “With the editing of the Quran translation of Kramers, I mean annotating, removing errors, etc. | |
| 03:42 | Kramers wrote this work without having access to the scientific works one should have. | |
| 03:50 | I tried to edit his translation in such way as he himself would have preferred | |
| 03:54 | if he had had access to all works”. | |
| 04:00 | Then he is asked about any possible connections to Mr. Wilders, and he says: | |
| 04:08 | “I know Geert Wilders. The first time I met him he was a member of the VVD fraction, | |
| 04:16 | A member of the Foreign Committee of Parliament. This committee had consulted | |
| 04:20 | a number of experts on religion and politics. | |
| 04:24 | I have met Wilders over the past ten years about 4 to 6 times. | |
| 04:29 | That was about everything. I can remember one time he asked me whether I knew | |
| 04:33 | a suitable Muslim who was willing to talk with him about Islam. | |
| 04:39 | Wilders has sometimes called me and I responded to questions he then asked. | |
| 04:43 | I can’t remember what those questions were and don’t know what he has done with my answers. | |
| 04:50 | I’m regularly called by journalists and politicians with questions on matters concerning Islam. | |
| 04:57 | For example where a particular verse in the Koran is. I answer them. | |
| 05:05 | In answer to a question by the Prosecutor, who points at a letter from Mr. Pestman | |
| 05:09 | of April 20, 2010, ‘whether I have participated in the creation of the movie Fitna.’ | |
| 05:16 | That I don’t know. I do not know what people do with the answers I give them. | |
| 05:22 | Wilders has asked me where in the Koran it says that infidels must be slain, | |
| 05:27 | or that they are pigs. I do not know whether he has used my answers for Fitna. | |
| 05:33 | At the least, Wilders did not ask me to advise him for the movie. | |
| 05:38 | I was also been questioned about this by Twan Huys [Dutch TV]; he also insinuated this. | |
| 05:44 | I’m angry about that. This morning there was an article in De Volkskrant | |
| 05:49 | about me and my link to Wilders. I express my amazement that people think | |
| 05:54 | I will be lying today because I talked with Wilders once. | |
| 06:00 | Mr. Moszkowicz tells me this letter states there exists a link between me and Mr. Wilders | |
| 06:05 | via The International Free Press Society in Denmark. | |
| 06:10 | I did not even know that Wilders had something to do with this organization, | |
| 06:14 | until I read it this morning in De Volkskrant. Lars Hedegaard has asked me | |
| 06:20 | to be on the advisory board of this organization. | |
| 06:24 | I did that, but I never developed any activity within this organization. | |
| 06:31 | The Magistrate tells me that he looked up that press release on the Internet. | |
| 06:37 | Under the press release, separate from this article, is a list of names of the Board of Advisors, | |
| 06:43 | with my name. I’ve never seen this press release. | |
| 06:48 | I also never signed a call to support Wilders. | |
| 06:53 | The Magistrate tells me that on the Internet it is possible to click further | |
| 06:57 | to support the petition. I certainly have not done that. | |
| 07:03 | Simon Admiraal” — the next expert, who also is heard by the Magistrate — | |
| 07:09 | “was a doctoral student of mine, from 2004 to 2008, at Utrecht University. | |
| 07:16 | I agreed with him not to see each other for a while in connection with this case. | |
| 07:22 | Ms. Sultan” — the third expert who has been heard — “I do not know personally. | |
| 07:27 | I have read her book and I watched the broadcast on Al-Jazeera”. | |
| 07:34 | Until here on the background and contacts of Mr. Jansen, | |
| 07:39 | and then the hearing continues on the contents. The title reads: | |
| 07:46 | “About the statements Wilders had made, as included in the summons. | |
| 07:52 | You [the Magistrate] ask me if I come across quotes that are not true. | |
| 08:01 | There are tens of thousands of books, says Mr. Jansen, who say the same things, | |
| 08:05 | and some of those things are controversial.” | |
| 08:09 | And thenceforth [I have to take a zip of water] questions of Mr. Moszkowicz… | |
| 08:13 | ||
| 08:21 | Then questions of Mr. Moszkowicz based on the individual citations | |
| 08:25 | in the subpoena, and here are briefly described. | |
| 08:31 | On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz, page 2, last quote: “Islam wants to dominate” till “civilization.” | |
| 08:40 | Mr. Jansen replies: “Muhammad, 570-632 AD, said ‘I have been commanded | |
| 08:50 | to make war against the people until they testify there is no God but Allah | |
| 08:54 | and that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger. Only by speaking out with this confession | |
| 09:00 | may they make their goods and blood untouchable for me’. | |
| 09:05 | That means you may not just take it away. There is no imam who will refute this statement. | |
| 09:15 | Also if you turn on the Dutch Muslim Broadcaster, you will hear this. | |
| 09:20 | From the pulpit, this phrase is often proclaimed. I also point at the Quran, Sura 9:29, | |
| 09:28 | which states that war must be waged to prohibit what God and his Messenger have forbidden. | |
| 09:34 | From these texts indeed speaks the will to dominate. | |
| 09:39 | I also refer in this context to a leading book, ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, in this is stated | |
| 09:46 | that it is a duty for every Muslim to join the war, until Islam triumphs. | |
| 09:53 | In numerous sermons, even in the Netherlands, it is said that Western civilization is evil and corrupt | |
| 10:01 | and needs to be overthrown. Islam is proud of the destruction of earlier civilizations | |
| 10:06 | such as Christianity in the Middle East and the Zoroastrian civilization [in Persia]. | |
| 10:11 | The theme ‘destruction’ often appears in the Quran, the Sharia handbooks, and standard works of Islam. | |
| 10:19 | All unbelieving societies must be transformed. If it is not by the Quran, then with the stick. | |
| 10:26 | You must consult an imam for the location of this last quote. | |
| 10:31 | I read it first in a Sufi magazine in Egypt, the quote is attributed to Caliph Osman”. | |
| 10:40 | Then another quote that is shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, and that is Fact 1, the first quote: | |
| 10:49 | “Moderate Islam does not exist”. Response by Mr. Jansen: “That is correct. | |
| 10:56 | There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam. | |
| 11:00 | The content of Islam is established. This cannot be altered. | |
| 11:04 | The public prosecutor asks whether I can say something about the percentage | |
| 11:08 | of moderate Muslims in the Netherlands. There was an American study, the Pew Survey | |
| 11:15 | by, among others, Dr. Esposito. He surveyed Muslims worldwide. | |
| 11:22 | This study shows approximately 20% of all Muslims take all Islamic rules literally and seriously. | |
| 11:28 | 60% have other things to do, but agree with Islam. This is called the ‘Silent Majority’. | |
| 11:37 | The remaining 20% wants to turn away, but dares not, out of fear of reprisals. | |
| 11:43 | It is difficult to distill realistic information from the survey”, says Mr. Jansen. | |
| 11:49 | “Many respondents are reserved. In this survey was a question on whether the attacks | |
| 11:54 | on September 11, 2001 were carried out by Jews or by Muslims. | |
| 11:59 | The majority said ‘by Jews’. Many respondents indicated an understanding for these attacks”. | |
| 12:07 | Then another part of a quote is shown to Mr. Jansen: | |
| 12:13 | “There is no distinction between good Islam and bad Islam.” Mr. Jansen: | |
| 12:19 | “That’s correct, there is only one Islam, and to Muslims Islam is synonymous with good. | |
| 12:25 | Without a doubt there will be a differences between Muslims in Indonesia and Morocco, | |
| 12:29 | but the content of Islam is established”. Judge: Then another quote: | |
| 12:34 | “Islam is the Quran and nothing but the Quran”. Mr. Jansen: | |
| 12:39 | “Islam is more than the Quran, namely the Shariah and the traditions. | |
| 12:44 | But the Quran is important because in it is stated that everything comes from God. | |
| 12:49 | Usually the Quran is published in an annotated version. | |
| 12:53 | Then after every Qur’anic verse a comment is included from the tradition. | |
| 13:00 | With the tradition I mean the collected canonical traditions about Muhammad’s actions and expressions. | |
| 13:07 | Most Muslims do not make a sharp distinction between these comments | |
| 13:11 | and the verses themselves, and regard all as the Quran”. | |
| 13:17 | Then the comparison between the Quran and Mein Kampf. Jansen says: | |
| 13:22 | “I understand that the Dutch get angry about this expression. Mein Kampf, however | |
| 13:27 | is freely available in the Middle East and a standard or popular book in every bookstore. | |
| 13:32 | Bill Warner, I know he is not authorized by the court as a witness in this trial, | |
| 13:37 | has compared how many of passages in the Quran and Mein Kampf are anti-Semitic. | |
| 13:43 | In the Qur’an there are more such passages. The article you can find on the Internet, | |
| 13:48 | and the end results of his research have so far not been challenged”. | |
| 13:55 | Then the term “Elimination”. Mr. Jansen says: “The Quran talks of ‘waging war’. | |
| 14:00 | In the Quran are 164 passages that call to war. About the killing of infidels for example | |
| 14:08 | in sura 9:30, ‘anyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God must be slain’.” | |
| 14:18 | Then the term “Dogs”. Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 14:22 | “This word appears once in the Quran, as a naming for non-Muslims. | |
| 14:27 | Furthermore, non-Muslims are called ‘foul beasts’ ….” | |
| 14:29 | ||
| Part 2 | ||
| 00:00 | Following quote, page 2, first paragraph, last sentence. | |
| 00:07 | “This quote by Oriana Fallaci is partly correct,” says Mr. Jansen. | |
| 00:14 | “The evil not only comes from the Quran, but also and especially from the Sharia. | |
| 00:19 | The Quran is important in the sense that it says that it is not a human invention | |
| 00:24 | but the Divine truth.” | |
| 00:28 | Then the expression “The Fascist Islam”. On this Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 00:34 | “I’m no expert on fascism. I find ‘fascism’ a curse. It implies there is no room for dissenters. | |
| 00:42 | In this I see the resemblance with Islam.” | |
| 00:48 | Next quote: “Sick ideology.” Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 00:53 | “I do not want to express a value judgment. Islam but is an ideology. | |
| 00:59 | Islam calls for action by its supporters, and that action is aimed at the entire society. | |
| 01:04 | From divorce to the organization of banking. Other religions do not demand that in this manner. | |
| 01:12 | The ideology comes forth from the Quran. That is where it begins, but also the Shariah | |
| 01:17 | and the traditions must be counted in. I have just shown that, and why, | |
| 01:22 | many Muslims view the Sharia and the traditions with the Quran as one.” | |
| 01:28 | Then a quote: “Ban that wretched book.” Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 01:33 | “My personal opinion is that banning is not a good proposal. People should rather read the Quran, | |
| 01:39 | for in the Netherlands already much is forbidden which the Quran calls for, such as killing infidels | |
| 01:45 | or the cutting off of hands.” This quote is regarding to Fact 1 on the summons. | |
| 01:53 | Then with respect to Fact 2 on the summons. There the questioning continues on to page 3, | |
| 02:01 | second paragraph, and in the sequel I understand it’s about the demographic | |
| 02:07 | development of Muslims in Europe. And Mr. Jansen says the following about this: | |
| 02:11 | “I was recently at a conference organized by the Burke Foundation. | |
| 02:16 | Statistics were presented on the demographics of Muslims in Europe. | |
| 02:22 | You can ask Bart Jan Spruyt [of the BF] about this aspect. The Islamic world is growing, | |
| 02:27 | Europe is shrinking. This has for example to do with the Dutch having | |
| 02:30 | an average of 2 children per family, and Muslims have more. | |
| 02:35 | American demographers have calculated this, there are ever-increasing numbers of Muslims in Europe. | |
| 02:40 | This can be problematic, because as I said, 20% of them believe literally in what Islam commands | |
| 02:47 | and want to carry that out. These people want to call the shots over others. | |
| 02:52 | There is no religion that wants to go that far with domination as Islam. | |
| 02:57 | What in the quote is wrong is that Muslims will draw to the countryside. | |
| 03:02 | Islam is primarily an urban religion.” As Mr. Jansen says. | |
| 03:08 | He further says: “In the Netherlands, politics and religion in principle are separated, | |
| 03:13 | but in Islam this is not so. In Islamic countries the secret service can take action | |
| 03:18 | when imams in sermons proclaim things that are not appreciated. | |
| 03:23 | In the Netherlands this in principle is not so. In Dutch mosques anything can be said | |
| 03:28 | without the state being able to interfere. This is why many Muslims, | |
| 03:33 | especially radical leaders, move to Europe.” According to Mr. Jansen. | |
| 03:38 | ||
| 03:47 | Then page 4, first paragraph, and that’s the quote in which professor Israeli is cited, | |
| 03:57 | then Mr. Jansen says: “Professor Israeli bases this statement on expressions of Sayyid Qutb.” | |
| 04:05 | Judge: I do not know how to exactly to pronounce it but it’s spelled q-u-t-b. | |
| 04:16 | [Mr. Jansen continues] “A prominent man, the most widely read Muslim writer ever. | |
| 04:21 | He said that the Muslims have tried twice to win the battle | |
| 04:25 | and that now the third round, the final battle, is being fought. | |
| 04:29 | On a question from the prosecutor on what powers would be behind this invasion attempt, | |
| 04:35 | I can not give an explicit answer, but I do can point to the document ‘Le Projet’ [The Project] | |
| 04:42 | from the 30s or 40s of the 20th century. This document comes among others | |
| 04:48 | from the father of Tariq Ramadan. In this is stated | |
| 04:52 | that Muslims must make use of Western freedoms. | |
| 04:56 | Once you have a large group, you automatically get the 20% who will fight for Islam, | |
| 05:03 | [who] will attempt to impose the rules of Islam. As an example, I can mention | |
| 05:09 | that there are Muslim countries that do not take [their] people back.” | |
| 05:16 | Then over to page 4, quote “The Muslim population doubles every generation”. | |
| 05:25 | Asked about this, Mr. Jansen says: “On this I cannot really say anything. | |
| 05:30 | There are articles stating how large the percentage of Muslims within a society must be | |
| 05:36 | in order to expect problems.” | |
| 05:40 | Further to page 4, third paragraph from the bottom, quote: “Islam is a violent religion”. | |
| 05:48 | Mr. Jansen: “Where the Bible merely contains dreams or stories containing violence, | |
| 05:53 | the Qur’an contains commands to violence in the imperative. | |
| 05:58 | It is an obligation, and the reward is great. I can quote Roger Scruton about this: | |
| 06:05 | ‘Christianity is a religion of failure, but became a success, Islam is a religion of success, | |
| 06:12 | but leads to monstrosities, and thus to failure.’” As Mr. Jansen stated. | |
| 06:18 | “Fortunately not all Muslims take the command to violence seriously, but some unfortunately do. | |
| 06:25 | There is an expression: ‘first a warning with the tongue, then a spanking by the hand | |
| 06:32 | and finally murder with the sword’. I will look up for you [the Magistrate] | |
| 06:38 | exactly where that is stated. A Muslim will undoubtedly say that it’s in the Quran.” | |
| 06:47 | Then to page 5, quote: “This book incites to hatred and murder”. Mr. Jansen: | |
| 06:56 | “Yes. Anyone who reads ten pages in the Quran will see that this is true, | |
| 07:00 | as long as it is only about unbelievers.” | |
| 07:04 | Then on page 6 of the summons, on the Quran and the size of the Donald Duck [comic]. | |
| 07:12 | Mr. Jansen answers: “There of course are verses that are not hateful. | |
| 07:16 | Care for the orphan, giving of alms. If you were to leave out all hateful verses from the Quran, | |
| 07:23 | it would be considerably thinner. Then about one quarter to one-fifth would remain.” | |
| 07:32 | Next quote, page 6, “The Quran is not a dead letter”. Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 07:39 | “Every Muslim father wants his son to learn the Quran by heart. | |
| 07:44 | In everyday parlance the Quran is often quoted. If you ask a Muslim | |
| 07:50 | whether Sharia law must be applied, he will say ‘Yes’. When you then ask | |
| 07:55 | if a thief’s hand then must be cut off, he sometimes says ‘No’, | |
| 08:00 | because he doesn’t know that this is in the Sharia. If you say that it’s in the Sharia, | |
| 08:05 | he then will say, ‘Well, then so be it’. For resistance against the Shariah is apostasy, | |
| 08:12 | and for that, according to the Sharia, the death penalty is required. Historians of religion | |
| 08:18 | will say that the religion is what believers make of it. But Muslims believe that Islam | |
| 08:24 | — thus everything written — is valid, and exists without possibility of influence by its followers. | |
| 08:34. | On questions by the prosecutor that he understood that in Indonesia | |
| 08:38 | a mild form of Islam is adhered to, I say that there also Islam becomes ever more strict. | |
| 08:47 | The imams there say the same as in other Muslim countries, more headscarves appear there, | |
| 08:52 | and to take the wind out the sails of the fundamentalist Muslim groups, | |
| 08:57 | the [Indonesian] government is taking Islamizing measures. Therein lies a danger.” | |
| 09:06 | Next quote from page 12 of the summons, on Moroccan boys, and then the quote: | |
| 09:17 | “They beat up people because of their sexual orientation” Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 09:24 | “It’s difficult to respond to that. I mention as example a fatwa issued by an imam, Al-Moumni. | |
| 09:32 | When a young boy asked whether in the context of jihad one may commit debauchery with girls, | |
| 09:37 | he answered that it is better to just get married. He then does not explicitly forbid it. | |
| 09:44 | Many Moroccan boys often are unconsciously busy with their religion. | |
| 09:49 | There are known examples of banging on the windows of non-Muslims in the neighborhood. | |
| 09:54 | This cannot really be called criminal, but eventually the non-Muslims will move out. | |
| 10:00 | Homosexuality may not become public. In Iran there is the death penalty for it, | |
| 10:06 | and this is also carried out. Al-Moumni said gay sexuality is a disease, | |
| 10:13 | thus you cannot help it. Which he himself found progressive. | |
| 10:18 | The Quran says that sodomy is a grave sin, worse than adultery. | |
| 10:25 | Who commits sodomy must be slain, and lesbian behavior is equivalent to adultery, | |
| 10:30 | for this is also the death penalty. You can find this for instance in the book | |
| 10:35 | ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, a standard work on the Sharia for Muslims.” | |
| 10:43 | Then back to page 3, the quote, “Their behavior stems from their religion and culture”, | |
| 10:54 | again on Moroccan boys. Mr. Jansen responds: | |
| 10:59 | “That’s somewhat correct. This involves in particular the efforts at harassment. | |
| 11:05 | Banging on windows and throwing of stones. This is being done primarily by brats, | |
| 11:10 | but their parents approve of this behavior. This behavior is insufficient to take up arms against, | |
| 11:15 | but is enough to make people move out. We would love it if we could find something | |
| 11:21 | outside of Islam which explains the behavior, but Islam approves it, | |
| 11:26 | and provides a justification, also when it comes to snatching purses. | |
| 11:31 | When the Magistrate asks me whether a Moroccan boy will ever snatch a purse of a Muslim, | |
| 11:37 | I say that this is possible, but I consider that rather unlikely.” | |
| 11:52 | The hearing continues on the film Fitna. On this Mr. Jansen says the following. | |
| 11:58 | “I’ve seen this film in the studio in Hilversum, on request by the NOS (broadcaster). | |
| 12:03 | I was asked whether I wanted to comment, whether the translations were accurate | |
| 12:07 | and if I ever seen the images before. I do not dare to guarantee that the version I’ve seen | |
| 12:14 | later in edited or photoshopped form started to circulate on the Internet. | |
| 12:20 | Whether the Sura translations are adequate?” Mr. Jansen: “Yes. | |
| 12:25 | Sura 8 verse 60: the singer in the film only repeats the word ‘terrorizing’ | |
| 12:33 | while in that Quran-verse it only appears once. | |
| 12:38 | Terrorizing,” according to Mr. Jansen, “is a correct translation of ‘tuhibuna’. | |
| 12:45 | You of course can always try a synonym such as ‘strike fear’ or ‘make scared’, | |
| 12:50 | but an Arab will translate this word as ‘terrorizing’. | |
| 12:56 | How do I know images are shown of what apparently are imams? | |
| 13:03 | I haven’t seen their diploma, but the clothing and ways of talking raise | |
| 13:08 | the impression in me that those are imams. The book shown with oriental writing | |
| 13:14 | is of course the Quran. | |
| 13:18 | It disappoints me that the Prosecutor did not have this researched well in advance.” | |
| 13:24 | Mr. Jansen continues: “In Muslim circles I have never seen anyone give the Hitler salute.” | |
| 13:29 | And then further also says: “Statements about Jews and violence against Jews | |
| 13:34 | are not uncommon in the Muslim world. These statements are not out of context. | |
| 13:40 | Every believer finds of his own belief that it is superior. If you do not pursue Islam, | |
| 13:46 | then you are a bad person. If you as a Muslim leave Islam, there is the death penalty. | |
| 13:52 | Is a criminal court does not assign this punishment, an individual must execute this. | |
| 13:59 | Allah has ordered that Islam should be spread globally, if necessary by arms. | |
| 14:05 | Whether I can mention sources for this?” Judge: Then Mr. Jansen mentions | |
| 14:09 | Sura 2:16, 4:89, 9:36. “Fortunately, many Muslims are too decent to execute this. | |
| 14:21 | Christianity is less obligational.” Judge: Mr. Jansen talks about preaching the word to all peoples. | |
| 14:29 | Next question, whether violence against women is common practice in Islam. | |
| 14:33 | Mr. Jansen says: “You’d have to ask a sociologist. The Quran does state | |
| 14:38 | that if you’re afraid that your wife does something that is not allowed, you must hit her. | |
| 14:55 | Sura 4:34. There are men who take this seriously, and preachers proclaim this verse.” | |
| 14:59 | ||
| Part 3 | ||
| 00:00 | “The West dominates, but according to Muslims, Islam should do this,” as Mr. Jansen says. | |
| 00:08 | Whether radical groups have any influence on mosques in the Netherlands? Mr. Jansen replies: | |
| 00:15 | “Yes, especially Saudi Arabian Islam, Wahhabism, and the radical Salafists, | |
| 00:23 | of that there is an increasing influence. I base that on newspaper articles, | |
| 00:29 | reports from the AIVD [Dutch Intelligence Service], but also on conversations | |
| 00:33 | with people in that world, for example Abdul Jabbar van de Ven. He told me proudly | |
| 00:39 | that he studied in Saudi Arabia and pleads for the introduction of Sharia law | |
| 00:45 | and a ban on music. For that matter, this can be traced back | |
| 00:49 | to a statement by Muhammad.” And then a quote: | |
| 00:54 | “I have been sent to remove the lute, the jar and the cross.” Mr. Jansen continues: | |
| 01:00 | “I also talked to two guys who make a television program called ‘Sal and Ab’. | |
| 01:06 | They too were proud that they had been to Saudi Arabia.” | |
| 01:13 | Up until this point the questions asked were in response to specific citations in the subpoena. | |
| 01:20 | There now follow a few general questions. First questions by the Prosecutor. | |
| 01:28 | On questions by the prosecutor, Mr. Jansen says the following: | |
| 01:33 | Asked whether in the Muslim world there is talk of secularism, Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 01:38 | “No, the opposite is true. I know there are friends of Islam who claim that there is | |
| 01:45 | a slow extinction of the faith, but I think they are wrong. | |
| 01:50 | The mood currently is more religious than ever. When I was in Cairo in 1966, | |
| 01:56 | there was not a headscarf to be seen. Now there is not woman seen without a headscarf. | |
| 02:01 | It is a symbol of the introduction of the Sharia. There are libraries full of books | |
| 02:06 | that defend my position and only a few shelves that say there is secularism. | |
| 02:12 | Those few shelves, however, are in charge in the Netherlands. | |
| 02:16 | They get the money for scientific research.” | |
| 02:21 | Mr. Jansen continues: “You ask me about the separation between religion and politics. | |
| 02:26 | Muslims know that they are two different things, but that’s about all. | |
| 02:31 | You must also keep in mind that at the beginning of Islam, in Muhammad’s days, | |
| 02:36 | society was stateless. In Islam, politics and religion therefore went hand in hand. | |
| 02:44 | The sultans were always in control. There was some rope-pulling with religious leaders, | |
| 02:50 | but there could not be any distance between religious and secular leaders.” | |
| 02:56 | Judge: I must read the word ‘and’ thus ‘religious and secular’ | |
| 03:05 | “The sultan is the boss, and the imams take the place of parliament. | |
| 03:11 | In Iran this is different, because there the ayatollahs are in control.” | |
| 03:19 | “The Magistrate tells me my name appears in the summons on page 10.” | |
| 03:30 | Mr. Jansen then says: “This quote is the headline of an article I wrote, | |
| 03:35 | Judge, and I didn’t know in advance that this would end up in the film” [Fitna]. | |
| 03:42 | Then a question by the Prosecutor: “The Prosecutor asks me how it could happen | |
| 03:48 | that the medieval Christians and Jews could have a separate status.” | |
| 03:53 | Mr. Jansen relies: “I refer to sura 9:29. Christians and Jews may temporarily, | |
| 03:58 | Judge, for a fee, be exempt from Islamic rules. | |
| 04:02 | It is so, however, that they can not be exempted from tax. | |
| 04:07 | One must continue to admit that Islam is superior. This is symbolized by the collector of the tax, | |
| 04:13 | Who strikes a blow on the neck as a symbol of decapitation.” | |
| 04:18 | Mr. Jansen continues: “I know the friends of Islam use this example as a sign of tolerance, | |
| 04:24 | but rather it is not, according to my lights. It remains a symbol of Islamic superiority. | |
| 04:31 | It is the myth of Andalusia that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together. | |
| 04:37 | Weinstein, a classicist in Dublin, wrote about this. | |
| 04:42 | This myth came to live in Russia at the time of the Tsars, | |
| 04:48 | to make it possible for Jews to study [at the university]. | |
| 04:53 | In this context I point out a study by Rodney Stark, who has calculated | |
| 04:59 | that there were no fewer pogroms in Andalusia than elsewhere in Europe. | |
| 05:06 | The Prosecutor asks me about Granada, whether that was the peak of the Jewish flowering | |
| 05:12 | within Islam. I do no know so much about that,” answers Mr. Jansen. | |
| 05:20 | Then there are a number of questions by the defense [Mr. Moszkowicz] | |
| 05:27 | On questions by Mr. Moszkowicz: “You tell me that a number of Dutch Islam experts, | |
| 05:31 | including Professor Leemhuis, have circulated a so-called fact sheet. | |
| 05:37 | I had a quick look on this fact sheet, but there are so many spelling errors in it | |
| 05:41 | that I didn’t pay much attention to it. You tell me that the fact sheet says | |
| 05:45 | that in the film Fitna, sura 47:4 is only partially quoted, and thus out of context.” | |
| 05:54 | The response by Mr. Jansen: “That it is partially quoted is correct, | |
| 05:59 | following the quote in the film, there should be quoted that when the opponents are overcome, | |
| 06:05 | they should be sold as slaves. The second half of this verse in my eyes | |
| 06:10 | Does not make the first part less bad. The whole verse says nothing more than | |
| 06:15 | that you only stop cutting off heads once the enemy surrenders, | |
| 06:21 | or has converted to Islam. It thus is not taken out of context.” | |
| 06:27 | Thus Mr. Jansen, and he illustrates: “In sermons and in general by Muslims, | |
| 06:33 | this verse is quoted as is done in Fitna. That is, only the first half. | |
| 06:39 | There are also two verse-enumerations, see for example the translation | |
| 06:44 | of the Quran by Kramers I edited, and scholars from Kufa, | |
| 06:48 | who view this as one verse, but scholars form Basra see it as two verses. | |
| 06:53 | Sura 47:4, as quoted in Fitna, and Sura 47:5, which is what follows.” | |
| 07:05 | Mr. Moszkowicz seemingly continues, and then Mr. Jansen says: | |
| 07:10 | “You tell me that on the fact sheet is stated that in Sura 2:256 states | |
| 07:18 | that there is no compulsion in the religion. When the Quran was revealed in Mecca | |
| 07:27 | it called for freedom for the followers of Muhammad. When the Quran | |
| 07:32 | was revealed in Medina, death to the infidels was preached. | |
| 07:36 | Ultimately, that last position in Medina has won. As time progressed, | |
| 07:42 | the original texts were annulled by later revelations. This is called “abrogation”. | |
| 07:51 | Leemhuis [involved with that ‘fact sheet’] should know that Sura 2:256 has been abrogated. | |
| 07:57 | For Muslims, there is no discussion about this. I will forward you later the | |
| 08:02 | the location of this abrogation, but you should also ask Leemhuis, under oath.” | |
| 08:08 | Then Dr. Jansen in this respect sent a letter to the Magistrate | |
| 08:20 | with respect to that Quran verse 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion” | |
| 08:26 | in which he gives a detailed information about that verse. | |
| 08:30 | Do you want me to also read out that later? [Mr. Moszkowicz: “Please.”] | |
| 08:34 | All right, I first continue the hearing, then I go to that explanation. | |
| 08:43 | Mr. Jansen has just said, this is an abrogation, and then the next point | |
| 08:54 | from the fact sheet as shown by Mr. Moszkowicz, says that | |
| 08:58 | the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84, | |
| 09:05 | “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this: | |
| 09:09 | “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.” | |
| 09:14 | And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says | |
| 09:19 | — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ — | |
| 09:25 | “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war. | |
| 09:30 | This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live | |
| 09:36 | within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224, | |
| 09:44 | “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”. | |
| 09:54 | And Mr. Jansen responds on this: | |
| 09:58 | “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me. | |
| 10:03 | There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you | |
| 10:08 | from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife. | |
| 10:13 | I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as | |
| 10:18 | ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’. | |
| 10:22 | Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you | |
| 10:30 | when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together, and you became brothers by His grace”. | |
| 10:37 | Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina. It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more | |
| 10:49 | than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means | |
| 10:53 | ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.” | |
| 11:01 | Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses | |
| 11:06 | to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this. | |
| 11:14 | It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about | |
| 11:19 | what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says, | |
| 11:25 | “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary. | |
| 11:32 | In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims | |
| 11:36 | — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.” | |
| 11:40 | Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him. | |
| 11:48 | ||
| Part 4 | ||
| 00:00 | the Quran also calls to peace and reconciliation. For instance in the verse 2:84, | |
| 00:05 | “You shall not shed each other’s blood”. Mr. Jansen says concerning this: | |
| 00:09 | “That is not correct, this verse applies only to Muslims among themselves.” | |
| 00:14 | And regarding Sura 10:25 Mr. Jansen says | |
| 00:19 | — there it says ‘God calls for the house of peace’ — | |
| 00:25 | “The residence or the house of peace is Islam, in opposition to the house of war. | |
| 00:30 | This verse thus means that you must become Muslim and should come and live | |
| 00:36 | within the Muslim community.” Then Sura 2:224, | |
| 00:44 | “Make not Allah an impediment to … making peace between the people”. | |
| 00:54 | And Mr. Jansen responds on this: | |
| 00:58 | “I read this complete verse now in the Quran I have with me. | |
| 01:03 | There it’s about an oath made in haste. This does not have to prevent you | |
| 01:08 | from still doing the good. Usually then it is about too quickly banishing your wife. | |
| 01:13 | I do not see the word ‘peacemaking’, I’d rather translate the word as | |
| 01:18 | ‘make it up again’ or ‘repair’. | |
| 01:22 | Then Mr. Jansen is shown Sura 3:103, “Think of God’s grace to you | |
| 01:30 | when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together, | |
| 01:34 | and you became brothers by His grace”. | |
| 01:37 | Mr. Jansen says: “According to the commentaries, this is said against the various groups in Medina. | |
| 01:42 | It addresses to Muslims. ‘Becoming brothers’ means nothing more | |
| 01:49 | than the conversion to Islam. ‘Think of God’s grace’ usually means | |
| 01:53 | ‘read the Quran’. It is an internal Muslim verse.” | |
| 02:01 | Mr. Jansen continues: “As Western philologist you may think ‘I use these verses | |
| 02:06 | to illustrate the peacefulness of Islam’, and maybe Leemhuis also sincerely means this. | |
| 02:14 | It is important however that these texts are addressed to Muslims, and it’s about | |
| 02:19 | what Muslims think of them. I do not know any verses,” he says, | |
| 02:25 | “which call for peace with non-Muslims. Co-existence is not in the Islamic dictionary. | |
| 02:32 | In practice it does happen, but only when all the armies of the non-Muslims | |
| 02:36 | — for example the armies of the West — are stronger.” | |
| 02:40 | Thus the hearing of Mr. Jansen, also undersigned by him. | |
| 02:50 | Well, then there is a comment made by the magistrate that in consultation with you the fact sheet is not attached as a writ. | |
| 03:01 | Then I go to the note by Professor Jansen on the Quranic verse 2:256 | |
| 03:11 | which was mentioned in the hearing, and on May 10 2010 | |
| 03:14 | in what appears to be an email, he wrote to the magistrate in Amsterdam. | |
| 03:28 | 1. Memorandum on the Qur’anic verse 2:256, “There is no compulsion in religion”. | |
| 03:38 | Islam teaches that this verse is ‘abrogated’, i.e. ‘canceled’ by later revelations. | |
| 03:44 | Note: Sura 2, where this Quran verse occurs, is according to friend and foe alike the first sura | |
| 03:50 | that was revealed in Medina. I consider it impossible that the complainants | |
| 03:55 | or the Prosecutor could find an Islamic lawyer or an academic Arabist who contradicts this. | |
| 04:01 | I regard it therefore as superfluous to spend additional work, time and attention | |
| 04:07 | to this issue of dating and chronology. The dating of Sura 2 is widely undisputed. | |
| 04:13 | See for example W. Montgomery Watt, Introduction to the Qur’an’ | |
| 04:18 | Page 2:20, top: “All chronological classifications consider sura 2 as the first of the Medinan suras”. | |
| 04:34 | And Jansen then follows with this note: Also the Quran translation by Fred Leemhuis | |
| 04:39 | states that Sura 9 dates from Medina (p. 129), and was revealed after Sura 5. | |
| 04:44 | Of Sura 5, Leemhuis then says that this was handed down after 48 (p. 77), and so on. | |
| 04:51 | Also according to Leemhuis, Sura 2 thus is older than Sura 9. | |
| 04:57 | Then Jansen continues: Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, established himself in Medina in 622, | |
| 05:02 | where he died in 632. Sura 9, according to friend and foe alike dates from a later phase | |
| 05:09 | of that period in Medina, in any case, according to most scholars, after the conquest of Mecca | |
| 05:15 | by the Muslims in 630. There are even scholars who believe that Sura 9 | |
| 05:20 | is the last Sura that was revealed in Medina. Eventual contradictions between Sura 9 and Sura 2 | |
| 05:27 | are therefore decided, in the sense that the rules as laid down in Sura 9, | |
| 05:32 | must be the prevailing rules of Islam and the Sharia. | |
| 05:37 | How can we be so sure that this is so? In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’, | |
| 05:43 | the oft-mentioned English-Arabic Sharia handbook by N.H.M. Keller, we read on p.629: | |
| 05:54 | “When two primary texts seem to contend, [the judge] gives precedence to: | |
| 06:00 | those which supercede previous rulings.” | |
| 06:04 | The word ‘previous’ here is crucial for the understanding. This book, ‘Reliance’, | |
| 06:08 | I mention here only because of the fact that in this case it is already more or less known, | |
| 06:13 | but there no handbooks on Islam and the Sharia exist that are made by Muslims for Muslims | |
| 06:19 | that on this matter state anything different. | |
| 06:23 | The principle of abrogation is explicated in the Qur’an itself; it is not the invention of outsiders. | |
| 06:29 | Qur’an 2:106, in the translation of Leemhuis and then a quote: | |
| 06:35 | “Whatever of our revelations that we abolish or cause to be forgotten we replace by | |
| 06:40 | something better or similar”. End quote. | |
| 06:44 | ‘Abolish’ is the word with which in both Leemhuis as Kramers clarify as “abrogate”. | |
| 06:53 | Qur’an 10:52: “God abolishes”. | |
| 07:00 | Sura 9 dates from the period in Medina, which means: 622-632 AD. | |
| 07:07 | It is not the first sura of that period, because Sura 2 is considered as such. | |
| 07:12 | Sura 9 in time is thus after Sura 2, and Sura 9 consequently abrogates the rules | |
| 07:18 | contained in Sura 2, when these are in conflict with provisions contained in Sura 9. | |
| 07:25 | Sura 9:29 in the translation of Leemhuis, contains the phrase | |
| 07:31 | “Fight against those who do not believe in God” and who “Do not forbid what God | |
| 07:36 | and his Messenger forbid.” This forbidding cannot be made consistent with | |
| 07:42 | “there is no compulsion in religion”, of 2:256. Forbidding, after all, implies coercion. | |
| 07:50 | The imperative with which verse 9:29 begins, ‘qaatiluu’, | |
| 07:69 | is better translated as “waged war upon”. The root ‘qtl’, which the word is related to, | |
| 08:05 | means ‘killing’. The specific grammatical form being used here, according to grammarians, | |
| 08:12 | could just as well be based on a meaning such as “trying to kill each other”. | |
| 08:20 | Also here, neither the complaining party nor the Prosecutor will find an Islamic legal scholar | |
| 08:26 | or an academic Arabist who contradicts this. Thus says Mr. Jansen. And he continues: | |
| 08:33 | That this struggle or war at a given moment ends, is in practice correct. | |
| 08:39 | In theory the Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam nonetheless establish | |
| 08:43 | that the duty to wage this struggle will remain until the Last Day. | |
| 08:47 | In the ‘Reliance’, the author states on page 602, the last lines of the page, | |
| 08:53 | that the obligation to wage Jihad in the English text: “the time and place for it”, | |
| 08:59 | remains until the return of Jesus, in the English text: “the final descent of Jesus, | |
| 09:05 | upon whom be peace”. Also here, the complaining party or the Prosecutor | |
| 09:11 | will not find an Islamic legal scholar or scholar of Islam or academic Arabist | |
| 09:15 | who contradicts it. The Islamic legal scholars and scholars of Islam | |
| 09:20 | therefore traditionally make a sharp distinction between the | |
| 09:24 | ‘the House of Peace’ and ‘the House of War’. | |
| 09:28 | This distinction is the foundation of Islamic international law. | |
| 09:34 | About this dichotomy an extensive literature exists. I can hardly imagine that an academic Arabist | |
| 09:28 | or an Islamic legal scholar or a scholar of Islam desires to publicly deceive a court on this matter. | |
| 09:50 | ||
| 09:54 | Then I get to the last paragraph, and its title is “In the issue that correction | |
| 10:01 | of un-Islamic behavior should be done first verbally and then by force”: | |
| 10:08 | From the canonical tradition-collection of Muslim, 9th century AD… | |
| 10:17 | A very comprehensive English quotation, would you want me to read that? | |
| 10:22 | Moszkowicz: “Not the English quotation, according to me.” | |
| 10:27 | Then I will say here what Professor Jansen said about this: | |
| 10:33 | The announcement of hand, tongue and heart is also in the canonical collection | |
| 10:38 | of Abuu Daawuud: Kitaab as-Salaat (Al-Khaalidii) | |
| 10:45 | “Who sees a forbidden thing he can change with his hand, let him change it | |
| 10:52 | with his hand: and if he cannot, then with his tongue, and if he cannot, | |
| 10:58 | then with his heart, and that is the weakest form of faith.” End quote. | |
| 11:04 | I am prepared if necessary — according to Professor Jansen — when the Prosecutor | |
| 11:08 | or the complaining party disputes this, to further elaborate these issues. | |
| 11:14 | And he still has a closing comment, and that final point is: | |
| 11:19 | At last I can inform you about my surprise that a Dutch court steeps itself so much | |
| 11:24 | in the details of religious and exegetical issues. This is contrary to everything | |
| 11:29 | I have been taught in elementary school, college and at the university | |
| 11:33 | about the separation of powers and the separation between religion and politics, | |
| 11:37 | between church and state, etc. — Thus said Professor Jansen, | |
| 11:42 | with all kinds of esteem, Amsterdam, May 10, 2010. That … Professor Jansen. | |
| 11:53 | Moszkowicz: “Thank you very much. President, with gratitude for what has already happened, | |
| 11:58 | there is a letter, and I’d like to request you, at this time also to read out, | |
| 12:06 | because the representatives of complainants assumed a particular relationship | |
| 12:10 | between Mr. Jansen and my client Mr. Wilders, there has been a correspondence about it, | |
| 12:17 | and on May 10, 2010, the Magistrate, Mr. Martens wrote a letter | |
| 12:23 | to Mister Pestman [lawyer for the complainants] about the alleged link, | |
| 12:27 | and that letter is not long, but I would like to disclose it. | |
| 12:34 | Yes, is this is a letter that belongs to the pleadings at this time? | |
| 12:39 | Umm, yes, it is in my file, and then I think it also is in yours. | |
| 12:44 | Okay, we will have a look at it. | |
| 12:48 | Umm… just an announcement of order here first, perhaps because I currently am doing less, | |
| 12:53 | but I’m starting to get it a little colder, is it just me or … | |
| 12:58 | it gets a little cooler here, okay, well above there [public] they also say that, | |
| 13:01 | so we will try to ask to do something about that later, my proposal is now to pause now for lunch, | |
| 13:07 | I’m taking a look at the members of the OM if that is okay, the defense, okay? Yes? | |
| 13:14 | Then we’ll pause until 13:00, I urge you all to be back in time, | |
| 13:20 | thus at least before 13:00, and then we will continue reading the files, | |
| 13:23 | and will in the meanwhile also have taken a look at your request. | |
| 13:27 | Moszkowicz: “It is of May 10…” | |
| 13:29 | I have made a note, yes. | |
| 13:32 | ||
| 14:10 |
